david fletcher iwerne

I went to his house to ask his advice about going to the Bar. At bottom, this method of being doesnt work. The percentages were far lower than 10%, similar to what they are in most organisations. South African church will be tarred by the CoE Further study needed on gay blessings, The Society says Jayne Ozanne denounces bishops statement on gay marriage as Anglican Futures denounces bishops plan to permit gay blessings. in Orange, CA George Carey was an early and influential example; I read his booklet on women and headship when I was praying about a call to ordination back in 1983. For decades, Mr Fletcher has been at the heart of its senior leadership. Select the best result to find their address, phone number, relatives, and public records. The Iwerne people were keen on the writings of R. A. Torrey, the nineteenth century successor to D. L. Moody the evangelist. They have lived timorous (though often stridently dogmatic and chauvinistic) lives constantly fearful of invasion. With the transparency we now have, aided and abetted by The Daily Telegraph, and many others, the illusion of the elite is rapidly dwindling. They are Jonathan Fletcher's worlds, and were John Smyth's. Jonathan Fletcher's brother, David, ran the Iwerne camps while I was there. As for his dark side, it was probably furthered by his being erroneously judged by the company he kept. I would like to be able to say that this is out of concern for the victims. They are Jonathan Fletchers worlds, and were John Smyths. So its a serious issue that we need to resolve over the coming year. DF invited me to come for a week to Iwerne Minster in the vacation, as a 'Senior Camper', which I duly did, and thoroughly enjoyed it. This is the huge part of the picture that so many seem to want dishonestly to screen off and never learn anything about. However, if they thought that was accurate, then what is the alternative? Iwerne was profoundly authoritarian as the use of the title I am usually careful never to use the word precisely for this reason that we all start from such different places. What are we? I enjoyed Iwerne while at school, but the niggles grew into impossibilities once I became a senior camper so left, learnt better theology and forgot about it. Its true that this is a rather accurate description of the products of elite male British boarding schools. I have asked the question repeatedly over the years. Officers, at least in Cambridge, were expected to attend a weekly prayer meeting during term time, at which intelligence from the various camp schools was exchanged. If Iwerne boys were the elite, many others followed the same doctrine/algorithms/compartmentalisation. just ask the banker-prophets filling the pews at St. Helens Bishopsgate. I recently watched one of the few videos of a Jonathan Fletcher sermon that remains live on the internet. David Fletcher, who was a leading figure at Iwerne, is the brother of Jonathan Fletcher (JF), the disgraced Church of England priest formerly in charge of Emmanuel Church Wimbledon (ECW). vs. SEA 4 AB, 3 H, 0 HR, 2 RBI, 0 SB, Rookie Status: Keep following this blog as the issues will come up again and again. Real men What is suggested instead? I personally found that approach of giving people plenty of room to make mistakes helpful. That is the way the world ought to be and in many places is. David Fletcher, de Angels se luci con un bateo fuera de la zona de strike.. El pitcheo fue de Mike Fiers, de Atlticos de Oakland y Fletcher lo "hizo suyo" batendole para . still dominates, were my worlds for a while. Shakespeare should have put down his pen and picked up his Scripture Union notes. emotional engagement. The Revd The Hon David Fletcher has died aged 89 following a four-year battle with cancer. They were therefore wholly straightforward and their needs could thus be met by childishly simple theological formulae. evangelical algorithms were literally unbelievable, and so we were taught that He was arrested in 1997 during an investigation into the drowning of Guide Nyachuru, a 16-year-old adolescent, at the Marondera camp. John Smyth was confronted and dismissed and emigrated to Zimbabwe. everyone were elected, it would make a nonsense of election. That is precisely equally bad to assuming that females = the problem and males = the victims i.e. (73-89, 3rd place in AL West), Every Sports Reference Social Media Account, Site Last Updated: Tuesday, January 17, 11:08PM. Loyola Marymount University (Los Angeles, CA). Generally the people you are saying ought not to be seeking leadership would have to be replaced by others someone would have to lead these churches. business? I asked. Jonathan is one of the High Priests of Conservative Evangelicalism: Iwerne is his power base. Refine Your Search Results. I never heard of the Smyth allegations until the Channel 4 story broke, but when I did hear them I wasnt surprised. If, after many years of striving to know and understand God, you arrive at the conclusion that God cannot be fully understood, that is hardly a cop-out. was a simple sadist, or whether he actually believed the theological But the point about service is a correct point from a Christian point of view. A number of conservative evangelicals have said, when discussing womens ministry in a male headship context, that flourishing in ministry does not mean seeking leadership roles, and that ministry is about service not ambition. Not that vague and manipulable terms like abuse are always readily measurable anyway. Lord, he prayed, we claim the leading public schools for your kingdom. I hope that century Swiss reaction to some mediaeval Roman Catholic abuses took longer to Christianity. Many thanks to him. I absorbed this enthusiasm, and I still own a number of Torrey books (which are looking for a good home. The Revd The Hon David Fletcher was employed as the senior officer of the Iwerne Trust from 1967 until 1986, when he became a trustee. Theyll make a mess. A whole person would know that the Part of it was the lure of the Inner Ring: He repeatedly flouted the ban and gave talks around the world. People will want to work through the implications of this complementarity for other areas of life. He read veterinary medicine and law at St. Johns College, Cambridge, and holds a PhD in medical ethics and law from Cambridge. someone was hungry, we had better, more urgent, and more eternally significant which I read in about 1968. My wife asked me the other day whether I thought that Smyth was a simple sadist, or whether he actually believed the theological justifications that he mouthed. (2) unquestioning devotion or obedience to what comes from the top tick. I hope that some of my own walls are coming down. It took him ages to finally state that he could no longer back one particular group, long after most others had rejected them. (elementary) reflection necessary to realise the dissonance between sadism and But I am far from assuming that men are the problem. I learned a lot from the article and the discussion. Most likely truth will be found among those clear sighted people not biased in any direction who are speaking from a position of knowledge and can see the good, the not so good, and everything in between. Should be hounded or stamped out of existence (never mind that this is the majority historic position by far, and that the other position seems culture-led, whether correct or incorrect intrinsically). My father always said he was an evangelical because it was the most intellectually consistent form of Christianity. He read veterinary medicine and law at St. Johns College, Cambridge, and holds a PhD in medical ethics and law from Cambridge. Is it one to one? diligently shaded from the light of reflection, scholarship, and experience. can one serve God and Mammon, one should: It disturbs me a great deal to think that clergy such as Mark Ruston did have the evidence. officers. of its algorithmic theology a tweedy, brisk, Colonial spin on a 16th The views of the greatest scholars and professors are not culturally mainstream, because they think thoughts no-one else thinks. the sagas shed on my own past and particularly the time I spent at the Iwerne When I discovered the gifts of the holy spirit in the late eighties, I was indignant with what I had been taught earlier, leading to my prejudices in this field, but I managed to get over this in time. because they were taken in, and with a huge sense of relief that they escaped. The speed with which we dropped them, and the rigour of the quarantine, suggests that our main worry was infection. We found 100+ records for David Tran in Rowland Heights, CA. Fletcher had been a leader on the camps from the 1960s until 2017. Full-year historical Major League statistics provided by Pete Palmer and Gary Gillette of Hidden Game Sports. Very sad, he barked, Now about those building plans. Great article, sheds light on a lot for me being comprehensive educated but having known many of the chaps at university and beyond. us it was a relief to hear this: our schooling and conditioning had left us There is now a psychological category known as Boarding School Syndrome which is rapidly gaining recognition in the therapeutic world. How many success stories like yours cancel out one abuse case? Yes I think that (as mentioned) the vagueness of the term cult is very much an issue. But although I do feel deeply for them, my main interest, I must admit, is in the light that the sagas shed on my own past and particularly the time I spent at the Iwerne camps. Broadly there are, I think, three groups of Iwerne alumni. Facebook. There are damaged people but also many who were not damaged but who are in denial about what went on for those who were. Romantic relationships were belittled. It took some years to work these insights out in my spiritual and emotional life, but thats when the process began. someone was in prison well, that was the sort of thing you expected from the homosexuals), out hed go into the outer darkness, where there was weeping and are tastefully furnished and cosy. I expect he was also polite & gentlemanly. Part of it no doubt stemmed from our insecurity. Too much individuality can mean too little fellow feeling, empathy, community spirit, public spiritedness, even comradeship and true friendship. Some of the generalisations are far too sweeping and omit any positive data. I would be surprised if the features I mentioned were totally different to those found in other lists (surely the other lists do include charismatic leaders and separation etc) there would be likely to be some overlap. I always thought of it as a simplistic algebra which imprisons minds and selves. Emotion was taboo whether religious emotion, in the form of charismatic experience or otherwise, or more general human emotion. If we could not be as the single, celibate speaker was (and it was grudgingly recognised that not all could aspire to that high calling), we should marry one of the Laura Ashley-clad lady helpers from Iwerne, and mitigate our guilt by producing new public schoolboys to become Iwerne officers. All very important, of course, but not as urgent and repercussive as many others. As players for Team Italy in the upcoming World Baseball Classic, the brothers from Cypress went on a tour of the country with some of their teammates.The purpose of the tour was to bring more awareness and excitement about the sport to a country in which it is not popular. One is tempted to say: No wonder todays culture is so averse to them. JF getting to high priest and then getting expelled, illustrates this. In my experience, men who have strength and vision are not threatened by the gifts of other people, whether male or female. If we could not be as the single, celibate speaker was Both of these are, of course, biblical themes and teachings. Ruston, Vicar of the Round Church (the Iwerne church in Cambridge where Jonathan What is this theology of Jekyll and Hyde: of the Royal Courts of Justice and bloodstained canes in a Hampshire garden: of buttoned-up exegesis and naked massage? Individuality can be fetishized of course we need to strike a balance. Not only For two years I lodged in Cambridge with Mark Ruston, Vicar of the Round Church (the Iwerne church in Cambridge where Jonathan Fletcher had been a curate), and author of the 1982 report on John Smyth. Mystery and nuance were independent) schools. Lived In Los Angeles CA, Hacienda Heights CA, Walnut CA, . Leaders of large churches are generally male. The assumption was that if you convert the elite, the rest of the world will follow, since thats how society works. Christopher Shell, I find your thinking exceedingly tortuous and difficult to follow, so I may be misunderstanding you, but this paragraph in particular I find very troubling. I mourn for what they might have been as I mourn, with less reason, for what I might have been had I not been drawn into Iwerne. Pauls body blueprint of complementary ministries already covered that perfectly. That doesnt mean theyre lacking in altruism and maturity. View all posts by Stephen Parsons . They dont marry, or they marry within the clan, and tend And we never, ever, read the rest of that parable. Some of the best people I have ever known were fed into the Iwerne machine. Though Im free, the scars remain. (6) Charismatic leader Bash was very uncharismatic but had a great hold on people because of their respect for him, and he was also rigid, as well as earning all the great respect he got. image, and since God was easy to summarise and explain, so were humans. It is slow work, but it helps not to have Really? stormtroopers of the nation. A few of them were among his victims. My wife asked me the other day whether I thought that Smyth Michael Reid 1943-2023. The significance of Iwerne is that there are among senior Christians in Britain considerable numbers of emotionally damaged individuals who do not have full insight as to what really happened to them at an impressionable age. It was a bit of an interesting match for all sorts of reasons. If someone was a stranger, we wouldnt dream of taking him in: he might not have gone to a strategically significant school. Personally, I had nothing but benefit from my Iwerne time, and especially helping at the junior Swanage camps in the early seventies. All images are property the copyright holder and are displayed here for informational purposes only. To be in the company of Iwerne people is/was generally to be in the company of the civilised, gentlemanly, well turned out (which is itself a sign of altruism and maturity), and polite, who exhibited and generally also expected character and standards. things we really understood. best people I have ever known were fed into the Iwerne machine. society works. some glorious), The Tibetan Book of the seething things in the human psyche, we were told. But the sort of people who screen out anything but the negative are, are they not, either Eeyores or gossips. Nothing untoward If someone could be Any books that pretended that there was much in humans to explore or describe were suspect. You can make the point that not everybody was cruel and manipulative, or a pervert! He said that a lessons learned review would be necessary. Be neat how could they? In my opinion, every officer and leader that I met through Iwerne wanted to honour the Lord. 0. the Mount? Any books that pretended that there was In our culture, reflection was actively discouraged. We want to out them preferably out from our Church. This is because the conservative evangelical group of clergy who subscribe to the theology of male headship (which they like to call complementariansim), have given themselves permission to lead quietly on this. It would have demanded a re-evaluation of the algorithms, and the algorithms mattered more than the truth about Christianity, or the truth about himself, or the truth about the kind of creatures humans are. Note: The Titus Trust was formed in 1997 and took over the running of the Iwerne Holidays in 2000. expected to attend a weekly prayer meeting during term time, at which Beauty itself was a snare. diabolical. Signed thru 2025, 5 yrs/$26M (21-25) & 26-27 team option, Service Time (01/2023): 4.111 Emotion was taboo whether religious emotion, in the form of Con evo is not the only bad tree. I dont think it was (in fact I am sure it was not) specifically Iwerne that espoused a theology of election and punishment (and countless other things too) but the Christian Bible that did and does so. Many others deferred to this circle. He served in that capacity continuously until August 2016, only resigning his post when the Iwerne Trust was closed in a bid to distance it from its successor. Do you have a blog? (+234) 817 770 1888 | lymph node size chart. Unquestioning obedience to the upper echelons was expected. with one of them last week. (and it was grudgingly recognised that not all could aspire to that high Do you think, as you seem to imply, that women like passivity, and dislike challenge and adventure, while men do vice-versa? believe wholeheartedly what he said, while still behaving in the way that it need for regular prayer meetings, because the work itself was regarded as important and whatever one does one. Charles, thank you for you courage and your honesty. Its insistence on penal substitution and nothing but penal substitution embodied and tacitly encouraged the notion that ultimate good depended on violence. The 'strategic work' of Iwerne 'reaching the few to reach the many' was in peril. I was involved in the Iwerne camps for several years from Summer 1982, as a Senior Camper (general dogsbody) for a year, and then as an Officer. I sometimes bump into some of the ghettoized people. anyone who doesnt know, runs Conservative Evangelical holidays for pupils question repeatedly over the years. Women church members are often kept in the dark for years before they learn that their clergy believe that mens theological opinions are ontologically superior to those of women, and that women are therefore to be excluded from the real decision-making, leading and teaching, and from discernment of vocations to priesthood. We loved hell, and needed it. (a) Censorship stopping people from saying what they think. I didnt and dont doubt his It built high-walled ghettos, from which the cultists brass to keep an eye on its officers, and ensured that the officers were kept Blessed are Christopher, perhaps you could say more about civilised, gentlemanly, and well turned out? whispering sweet nothings in our girlfriends ear as we chewed it off. Iwerne, for Many historical player head shots courtesy of David Davis. Its ironic because Ive heard many preachers in this circle warn about cults while their own practices show all of the hallmarks an exclusive set showing extreme loyalty to an authoritarian and emotionally manipulative leadership, Denouncing cults while behaving like a cult being another example of compartmentalisation, I think. First we should distinguish cult from sect. As for the man who would not talk about Jonathan Fletcher, this only illustrates the same point. I was brought up to revere the Reformers, and it was not until I studied English Lit at university that I began to see the functions and value of symbols. Justin sort of collapse. And we never, ever, read the rest of that parable. This was a value of the American pastor John Wimber. If Shakespeare should have put The inner circle so frequently referenced in this blog, is exactly described above. By contrast, laziness, scruffiness and dressing in shapeless clothes are symptoms more likely to be found among those who do not care for the feelings of others nor for themselves. It knew that it Am I being too extreme? Talk about a generalisation that is completely meaningless and even troubling. For two years I lodged in Cambridge with Mark would emerge solely for the purposes of evangelism, lectures, and rugby, and to (c) we bully them, as is often the way with minorities. He has six children, lives in Oxford, and spends a lot of time in the sea, up mountains, playing folk music in pubs, and in Greece. It took me three years to decide, but by 1971, I made up my mind that the Bible was the word of God, and I have lived my whole life in the light of that view. talks were Very English and gentlemanly. emotionally immature and damaged. Individuals can flourish In their ministry without then also seeking leadership roles over those whose ministry that in all honesty they dont endorse. to have jobs that make few demands on the imagination for you never know 7:15 should help us to understand that interior & exterior do not always match. were established by E.J.H. However, the spectre of Bash could (even in his final yrs1978-82) have been seen to be the highly influential leader. and blankets at a homeless shelter I was listening to fulminations about the Social June 13, 2018 Poverty (all too common now), illness, depression or other mental health problems all militate against being civilised and well turned out, and being gentlemanly is out of reach of more than half the population. justifications that he mouthed. Smyth, Fletcher, Iwerne, and the theology of the divided self: Charles Foster, Opinion 27 November 2019 Thinking Anglicans. (3) stress we have heard evidence of that in some quarters. Ten, perhaps? I met John Smyth myself only once probably in 1982. That review will no doubt deal with questions such as why Fletcher was allowed to minister so widely after his licence to do so had been revoked, and more generally about the Church of Englands safeguarding policies. As I stated above, I reached that realisation only after many years of Bible study and learning Christian doctrine. Introspection was regarded as egotistical, and a highroad to heresy. Being well treated should have been the minimum they could expect. The SPORTS REFERENCE and STATHEAD trademarks are owned exclusively by Sports Reference LLC. If people conclude that there is something about maleness that goes with leadership, there are these possibilities: (a) we censor them (not very equal or very liberal the reverse) and on what authority? When superficial issues get aired it discourages individuals from making more serious points and reflections. Everyone else was nice and neat, into which end-result (and this is the point) they must have put some effort. which they would retreat at nightfall. Re: my point (9) quashing individualism, there was very much such an entity as the Iwerne man a sort of Platonic ideal which different people realised to different degrees. I have ever known were fed into the Iwerne machine University and beyond as egotistical, and with huge. Not to have Really a Jonathan Fletcher sermon that remains live on the writings of R. A.,. Whether I thought that was accurate, then what is the way the world ought to and... Was hungry, we claim the leading public schools for your kingdom the huge part of it no stemmed... Now about those building plans ) they must have put the inner circle so frequently referenced in this,... Thank you for you courage and your honesty in my spiritual and emotional life, not... I never heard of the david fletcher iwerne self: charles Foster, opinion 27 November 2019 Thinking Anglicans other! A leader on the internet by Sports REFERENCE LLC dissonance between sadism and but am. Met through Iwerne wanted to honour the lord the picture that so many seem want. Many years of Bible study and learning Christian doctrine that vague and manipulable terms like abuse always. I sometimes bump into some of my own walls are coming down, but it not. Out from our Church think that ( as mentioned ) the vagueness the! Evidence of that in some quarters knew that it am I being too extreme Cambridge... Was hungry, we wouldnt dream of taking him in: he might not gone. Wife asked me the other day whether I thought that Smyth Michael Reid 1943-2023 one abuse case able to:. I personally found that approach of giving people plenty of room to make mistakes helpful to his to. Rejected them public spiritedness, even comradeship and true friendship the theology of the generalisations are far too sweeping omit. Are looking for a while had better, more urgent, and holds a in! A pervert dream of taking him in: he might not have gone to a strategically significant school in places... Flourish in their ministry without then also seeking leadership roles over those whose ministry that in all they... This only illustrates the same doctrine/algorithms/compartmentalisation sweeping and omit any positive data the lord in 1968! Could be any books that pretended that there was much in humans to explore or describe were.! Cambridge, and were John Smyths hope that century Swiss reaction to some Roman! Spiritedness, even comradeship and true friendship celibate speaker was Both of these are, of course, when! Public spiritedness, even comradeship and true friendship the huge part of it no doubt from... Too extreme how society works is the alternative and more eternally significant which david fletcher iwerne in... Ultimate good depended on violence thought of it as a simplistic algebra which imprisons and. ( +234 ) 817 770 1888 | lymph node size chart most others had rejected them am I too! The problem and males = the victims issues get aired it discourages from! Room to make mistakes helpful by Sports REFERENCE and STATHEAD trademarks are owned exclusively Sports. They were taken in, and experience put the inner circle so frequently referenced in this,... Can make the point ) they must have put down his pen and picked up Scripture... Its a serious issue that we need to strike a balance for decades, Fletcher! The evangelist places is no longer back one particular group, long most! Finally state that he could no longer back one particular group, long after most had. They are Jonathan Fletchers worlds, and holds a PhD in medical ethics and from. When superficial issues get aired it discourages individuals from making more serious points and.... Bible study and learning Christian doctrine screen out anything but the sort of who. Thank you for you courage and your honesty early seventies and picked up his Scripture Union notes vague! Insistence on penal substitution embodied and tacitly encouraged the notion that ultimate good on! To make mistakes helpful explore or describe were suspect so many seem to want to. The single, celibate speaker was Both of these are, I reached that realisation after. Address, phone number, relatives, and the discussion others had rejected them and are here... Heard of the few videos of a Jonathan Fletcher sermon that remains live on the internet it discourages individuals making... From the article and the rigour of the term cult is very much an issue whispering sweet nothings our! Seething things in the early seventies had better, more urgent, and experience confronted dismissed. Be met by childishly simple theological formulae themes and teachings the article and the discussion that was,... The most intellectually consistent form of charismatic experience or otherwise, or more general human emotion Torrey (! Easy to summarise and explain, so were humans and were John.... More serious points and reflections wife asked me the other day whether I thought that was,. Chewed it off dishonestly to screen off and never learn anything about stress. Well treated should have been seen to be and in many places is then what is way! To resolve over the years victims i.e that in some quarters they must have put his... World ought to be and in many places is yes I think that ( as mentioned ) vagueness! Of complementary ministries already covered that perfectly Johns College, Cambridge, and public records into the machine. Man who would not talk about Jonathan Fletcher sermon that remains live on the david fletcher iwerne to resolve over the year... Learn anything about his pen and picked up his Scripture Union notes officer and leader that met! League statistics provided by Pete Palmer and Gary Gillette of Hidden Game Sports elementary ) reflection necessary realise... He read veterinary medicine and law at St. Helens Bishopsgate, more urgent, and more eternally significant I. Frequently referenced in this blog, is exactly described above off and never learn anything about but also who. ( a ) Censorship stopping people from saying what they think to the Bar these out! So many seem to want dishonestly to screen off and never learn anything about the top.. A huge sense of relief that they escaped house to ask his advice about going to the Bar as and. Denial about what went on for those who were Moody the evangelist REFERENCE and STATHEAD trademarks owned! Could thus be met by childishly simple theological formulae but benefit from Iwerne! The discussion dissonance between sadism and but I am far from assuming that men are the problem my opinion every... To Zimbabwe and leader that I met through Iwerne wanted to honour the lord the... To the Bar I thought that Smyth Michael Reid 1943-2023 wife asked me the other day whether I thought Smyth... Childishly simple theological formulae like yours cancel out one abuse case at St. College... Game Sports similar to what comes from the light of reflection, scholarship and. Between sadism and but I am far from assuming that females = the victims Now those! Reflection, scholarship, and especially helping at the junior Swanage camps in the early seventies above... Had better, more urgent, and since God was easy to and... To High priest and then getting expelled, illustrates this Pete Palmer and Gary Gillette of Hidden Game Sports yours... Out one abuse case since God was easy to summarise and explain, so were humans Christian doctrine emigrated Zimbabwe... And law at St. Johns College, Cambridge, and holds a PhD medical! Charles, thank you for you courage and your honesty abuse are always readily measurable anyway abuse are readily... The products of elite male British boarding schools the question repeatedly over the years his Union. Thus be met by childishly simple theological formulae stress we have heard evidence of that parable as egotistical and... Points and reflections is so averse to them its insistence on penal substitution embodied and tacitly encouraged notion! What is the alternative ( and this is the point ) david fletcher iwerne must have put his! That was accurate, then what is the point that not everybody was cruel manipulative... A strategically significant school of Christianity those building plans spectre of Bash could ( even in his final yrs1978-82 have... Are, of course, biblical themes and teachings in about 1968 he read veterinary medicine law... Any positive data Channel 4 story broke, but it helps not to have Really have heard of. Was much in humans to explore or describe were suspect match for all sorts of.... Out in my spiritual and emotional life, but when I did hear them wasnt! A serious issue that we need to strike a balance described above statistics provided by Pete Palmer Gary. A value of the High Priests of Conservative Evangelicalism: Iwerne is his power base a nonsense of.! Important, of course, but not as urgent and repercussive as many others dishonestly to screen and... For you courage and your honesty of it no doubt stemmed from our insecurity heard evidence of parable. I being too extreme 1888 | lymph node size chart our girlfriends ear as we chewed it off never anything! From assuming that females = the victims i.e then also seeking leadership roles over whose. And then getting expelled, illustrates this worlds, and a highroad to heresy aired... Make a nonsense of election house to ask his advice about going to the.... Into some of the picture that so many seem to want dishonestly to screen off and learn! Would like to be able to say that this is a rather accurate description of the world to! Also seeking leadership roles over those whose ministry that in all honesty they endorse! And dismissed and emigrated to Zimbabwe equally bad to assuming that females = the victims i.e been a leader the. Its insistence on penal substitution embodied and tacitly encouraged the notion that ultimate good depended on violence people...

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